Interview with Tina

Tina is a busy young female academic doing
controversial but important research. 

In some of my previous posts, I mentioned that Linda is not just a female self-defense trainer, she has a faculty position at the Faculty of Physical Education and besides teaching several courses, and coaching a women’s football team, she also does cutting-edge research in the relatively new but also controversial field of experimental female self-defense. I have been always intrigued and wanted to learn more and make a blog post about it. When I contacted her recently, Linda told me that unfortunately she is going through some medical treatment soon, and the best would be to interview Tina, a recently graduated Ph.D. student in her group, whom I already briefly met once when I was interviewing Linda. I thought it was an excellent idea, so I immediately wrote her an email and arranged a meeting. I was very excited when I met her in her office at the university. She offered me a cup of coffee, I made myself comfortable in an armchair and looked around. Her office looked like a typical working place of a busy young academic; shelves were filled with various books, and on the walls were hanging pictures from meetings and conferences as well as snapshots of training sessions and successful experiments and some medical posters and art. On her desk, she had the most special piece, a detailed plastic anatomy model of male genitals in real size.

One of Tina's office wall decorations.
This art signifies she has to deal with different
penis and testicle types.

It was very enjoyable to meet such an ambitious and knowledgeable young female scientist. Tina is very passionate about her work, and I especially appreciate her openness and transparency about some sensitive topics. The interview with her was an eye-opening experience, and I am sure you will enjoy it as well.

Thank you very much Tina for agreeing to this interview, I think what you and Linda do is quite fascinating but a bit shrouded in mystery. Can you tell us a bit about your research field?

The field I and Linda work in is now called experimental gyneaftoamynology from the Greek words gynaíka - female and aftoámyna - self-defense as a newly established branch of physical education. Its primary aim is to make female self-defense systems most effective through empirical investigations. It means that instead of relying on some anecdotal evidence or unproven theories and assumptions, we put the theories to the test. It is a multidisciplinary discipline, and it combines different aspects from human anatomy and physiology, to psychology, and physical education.

Interesting, so what does your workday look like?

Like all scientists, I am busy from early morning to late afternoon. Basically, I run on coffee… there is always a lot of new literature to read, then I am often occupied with writing manuscripts and reports, filing, and submitting applications for grants and ethics commission approvals, recruiting test subjects, planning, and then, of course doing the experiments…this is what I and Linda like the most. But nothing is easy, and it requires a great amount of commitment and hard work. In the end, it is always so rewarding to get the hard-earned results. Sometimes we must go down the rabbit hole with unexpected outcomes popping up…can be quite thrilling.

What attracted you to this research field and how you made up your decision to do a PhD?

Initially, I wanted to become a high school physical education teacher. In the second year of my study, I was so amazed by Linda’s lectures. She was talking about things I had never heard before, I realized that this is the research that saves lives but hardly makes headlines. As an undergraduate student, I learned about two cases of a sex attack on campus. One sadly ended in rape, and the other one failed as the girl, trained in Karate successfully defended herself.  The ‘poor’ attacker was left with multiple serious injuries including a ruptured testicle after a well-executed Kin Geri. I too was harassed during my first year by a guy and did not know how to properly react. I realized the outcome of a sex attack does not need to be predetermined; a girl can win if she is provided with the right knowledge and skills. To help to drive a paradigm shift in society I embarked on a mission to help Linda use science to equip women with the best knowledge and tools to accomplish their safety in this dangerous world.

What do you think about Linda? How is it to work with her?

I admire her a lot, she is an outstanding scholar, a great supervisor, and a role model for the generation of young female scientists like me. She is a fountain of unconventional ideas. You probably know her, a little bit special personality from the course, she is strict and very demanding but also focused and goal-oriented. One might argue that she occasionally crosses the line or maybe she is too uncompromised when it comes to male test subjects, but it is necessary to reach the desired goal. Not only is the research topic difficult, but she also must cope with many criticisms and obstacles. It is commendable how she can materialize her real-life experience including the time she worked for the SIREN program and that she is not afraid of directly, without any euphemisms to address any awkward topics. She can talk nonchalantly about the details of testicular injuries and eye gouging the same way as about gardening and cake cooking…squeamishness is definitely not in her dictionary. But I guess you know that from the course (Tina was smiling).

You recently defended your doctoral thesis. What is the title and topic?

My thesis has the title Evaluating physical last resort strategies to prevent rape. It covers a thorough investigation and evaluation of the techniques and finding the best strategies for incapacitation the attacker and enabling the victim to flee. We evaluated the effectiveness in targeting all vulnerable points on the male body: eyes, Adam's apple, penis, and testicles. To some extent, I investigated almost all of them, but I mainly focused on my and Linda’s favorite, testicles. As you know there has always been a lot of controversy surrounding these sensitive male organs. You can hear so many conflicting arguments and different pieces of advice, so we wanted to settle this debate once and for all. We wanted to address issues such as: How incapacitating it is, which techniques should be used to a level a woman can cause an injury, and even what is the best method to apply the most secure grasp even when the man has pants on. Now, we can confidently claim, that the success of targeting testicles is much higher than previously admitted, we have solid proof and evidence it simply works in many different situations and is highly incapacitating. I hope with our outcomes we put the long-standing debate to an end. However, we found out that, to achieve success, women must be taught these things properly without any reservation, and they must practice regularly as the automatic, correct, and right-moment execution of the techniques is crucial.

How did you find out? Can you tell us about your experiments?

Well, there were many, but I can tell you about one very interesting experiment in which we had two groups of female students. The control group was not taught any physical techniques, and the other test group was provided with detailed comprehensive information on the male anatomy and the vulnerable points of the male body, and how to injure those. Pretty much they were taught the same things as you were in the course. They could even practice some techniques on silicone testicles (We will talk about it later).

Many female participants report an empowering experience that they
share with their peers and express willingness to come back

We arranged a simulated scenario when they had to subdue a man attacking her. The first group's success rate was app. 20%, quite low in comparison to the second group for which the success rate went through the roof, reaching 70%. It was hilarious to see all those young guys on the floor clutching their anguished groins. We even had some medical emergencies, but luckily no permanent injuries, just some bruising and swelling of the scrotums. Sometimes we even had to step in to stop overenthusiastic women in their rage to prevent harm to male subjects. We calculated we could reduce the incidence the rape by at least half if we properly teach young women these techniques. This shows the barriers are not that difficult to break, we just need to find a better way how to empower women instead of saying: You are weak sex, live with it…and all that bullshit…excuse my language. It was amazing to see the ladies leaving the room with great confidence, evidently empowered, bragging about their new skills and ‘injuries’ they were able to cause on male organs when chatting with the other group…and the knowledge of newly gained power was transferred.

That’s quite fascinating. Any other experiment?

Part of my thesis was to find the best way to attack testicles with a hand in different situations on clothed or naked attackers. A serious issue, but I cannot recall having other times such great fun. We had two guys, with distinct types of scrotum: tight and loose. They exchanged different underwear and pants and of course, at some point, they had to undress completely. We had to cope with frequent unwanted erections, faints, intermittent screams, importantly also ‘Eureka’ moments. One female participant satisfied she finally managed to apply a secured lock on a tight scrotum, exclaimed: ‘Now is the time to test the best method for testicular rupture!’ The other girls around laughed, and the poor boys cringed. Well, it could be an interesting activity, but we cannot afford to put their delicate reproductive organs at such risk. Sometimes, the screams combined with loud laughter from our lab can be heard in the hallways, and we have people knocking on the door, being horrified, and asking what’s going on…Well, that’s the price of doing such innovative research. Now Linda can go to the course and teach you confidently what should you do when a filthy scrotum appears close to your hand.  

I would expect it to be difficult to get volunteers for your experiments, isn’t it? How do you attract them?

We recruit both female and male test subjects among faculty students; male subjects are usually semi-professional athletes. We prefer young fit men, with a good physique. It is telling to see their strength is in vain when applying the right techniques to the core of their masculinity. Before admission, they have to go through a rigorous selection process and we do not accept everybody. We look at the size and type of their pressure points including their genitals to account for as many variables as possible.

Male participants are selected from faculty students
based on different parameters. Muscular physique and
types of their genitals are some of them. 

And what does attract them? Surprisingly, there is no shortage of volunteers. Linda made several funny recruitment ads (Tina pointed at the posters on the wall with interesting graphics and text ‘We need your balls’), but I don’t think this is the reason. The motivations of the participants are diverse and differ between males and females. They usually get some ECTS points for volunteering and some small monetary compensation. I think many of them come out of curiosity and sometimes guys make a bet with their pals, or they are convinced it is just a prank and at the end, they are often unpleasantly surprised. The shock often comes the moment we ask them to expose themselves for genital evaluation. But that’s the game we play. They must sign a waiver and we brief them about what kind of participation we expect. Surprisingly many come back and want to participate again, even without any reward. Female participants often in the final questionnaire account for how empowering experience it was to participate in the project, and whether there is an opportunity to help more. Interestingly, since we started our research, we noticed fewer rape attempts reported here than other faculties. 

What is the most difficult part of doing the experiments?

Sometimes the experimental part is very demanding and not a piece of cake for the experimenter as well as a female, or male participant. First, we must break common barriers such as squeamishness, prudence, and shyness but we also must consider safety. The experimental setup inevitably involves handling bare genitals and causing pain, which can't be avoided. We often must repeat an experiment several times, even if we see the male subject cannot take it anymore. Simply we need enough repetitions to make a solid statistical conclusion. But how else would you answer the question of whether a particular technique is effective or not, without actually performing it in real? Some interesting questions were posted by your blog readers, regarding for instance the type of testicles and different situations that need to be investigated. But we always weigh the benefits and possible risks. Nevertheless, I admit some experiments can be fun and bring a lot of satisfaction in case of positive outcomes.

I heard from Linda about one unfortunate experiment when a volunteer ended up in the hospital can you tell us more about it?

So-called freezing is often considered a common problem in female self-defense. We wanted to investigate this phenomenon closely, so we simulated an unexpected hyperrealistic attack on me. I did not know when and where it was going to happen. One of our volunteers Mike, played out an attacker in the dark parking lot when I was leaving the campus. Maybe because I undertook training I did not freeze and reacted the best I could. A sharp elbow rear jab and a swift back kick with my heel did the ‘intended job’. The ‘attacker’ unfortunately…well if in real life fortunately…ended up in hospital with a broken rib and contusion in his left testicle. He recovered through but did not want to participate in our research anymore, which was a pity. I liked Mike a lot, he was a very useful male test subject.

I admit it was enjoyable when we trained with Bob and Peter. However, many women cannot train male partners. What is for example the best simulant of testicles or eyes? You already mentioned the silicone model...

Training self-defense and proper targeting of vulnerable points such as testicles or eyes is undoubtedly difficult. Of course, a real set of testicles is the best, but not always available so some realistic models help. In a small project, we tested different everyday objects and compared them to testicles, on all parameters including the texture and pressure necessary to cause rupture. We can recommend lemons and limes. These fruits are readily available in all grocery stores and when squeezing all the juice out, is a good exercise for gaining finger strength… of course, they are also a great source of vitamins as well. Plums and small apricots are also suitable analogs because of their right texture, shape, and size. As for the eyes, the gooseberries are excellent but sometimes hard to get. We sought to develop something more durable and nondisposable so we recently collaborated with a urologist from a nearby clinic Dr. Lane, and developed a prototype of a very true-to-life durable simulant of male genitals for some hardcore training. She provided us with critical parameters and valuable advice on anatomy and variables. No one knows better male genitals than someone handling them every day (Tina reached for the peculiar object and handed it to me for inspection. It was indeed almost like the real piece).

Realistic silicone models are being developed
for female self-defense training.

This thing is made from high-quality durable silicone and contains hard rubber testes with the same resistance as real glands with detailed plumbing attached including epididymis and spermatic cord. No death pinch will ever fail! With this strap, it can be easily fastened to common leather-kicking dummies and is perfectly sanitizable so can be used for training biting techniques as well. Linda has a pair of these and is going to use them in her course. We contacted some silicone molding companies for mass production, but all showed no interest, luckily, we found one with a female CEO who was very enthusiastic and wanted to help even without any financial profit, so I hope we can get it on the market soon.

I guess you need some ethics approval and what about funding such research?

That’s right, we have to apply for the ethics commission approvals, and it is always a pain in the ass. In the last couple of years, we have been lucky because of our female dean, who has been very supportive of our cause and not afraid to accommodate controversial research topics and ideas at the faculty. She clearly understands the significance and impact of the field and that the path to the results is challenging and not well-trodden. Without her, I have a doubt we could continue our work.

Not only ethics approvals, but it is also extremely difficult to get sufficient funding because of the contentious and neglected topic. We regularly receive a lot of harsh criticism, mainly from male management and application reviewers. We even get a type of response: Why does she need funding, all she does is squeeze testicles all day long, what kind of research is that? Damn, how ignorant! (Tina was visibly upset)

I heard you also gather and evaluate the data from real-life situations...

Testicles can swell to the size of oranges
after some proper 'treatment'.

Indeed, experiments are just part of our activities and medical and police reports are a very valuable source of data. We gather and review those and critically evaluate and statistically process all cases, both successful and unsuccessful. We also perform interviews with women with experience in such situations. It is interesting how many success cases go unnoticed by the press and media, which is a pity. Dr. Lane provided us with some valuable data from the emergency cases she encountered while working at the urology ER. I have seen pictures of attackers' genitals significantly ‘modified’ as a result of a successful counterattack. Not for the fainthearted, but quite telling. I did not know a scrotum could swell to the size of an orange. Dr. Lane said the best rapist deterrent would be to post them everywhere.

What are you working on right now and what are your plans for the future?

At the moment, I am writing a paper with a tentative title Glands and Glans - from neglect to focus.  It will be a more sociological/historical study of how perceptions of male genitals in the context of female self-defense have changed throughout history and what were the implications for the era. I would like to stay in academia and continue researching some novel innovative techniques Linda proposed; they all sound brutal and effective but at the same time very exciting to explore. I also have ideas about some unconventional methods for distraction and deception, which we can develop and evaluate on volunteers. But it all depends on the funding and whether we continue to receive positive support from our dean.

Thank you, Tina, for this interesting interview, I wish you a lot of success in your scientific endeavors!